SciFi Surplus Podcast #045 Council
June 3, 2008
Thank you for taking your valuable time to listen to us. This is show number 45. We’re going to be talking about Warfare is SF as our big discussion topic. In the news is Terminator 4, Universal Studios fire damage, and Stargate Atlantis. We’re also going to give you the final results for the SciFi 16 and let you know who filled out the winning bracket to get Free SciFi Surplus Stuff.
Participating this week:
- John - Arbiter of Animation
- Randy - Knight of the Trapezoidal Table
- Vince - Regent of Giant Robots
- Jeromy - The Earl of All Things Ethereal
- Casey - Duke of Dirigibles
SciFi Surplus is also presented by listeners like you. Thank you for your donations.
June 4th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Two issues guys; First off it is highly plausible one illegal entry to a network could cause system wide crashes, believe it or not today’s American armed forces are more integrated network wide then just 10 years ago and of course the reasoning is sound why do it, information and the ability to act on real time data wins wars. You seem to forget Casey the Cylons are walking talking supercompters, plant a virus let it replicate and find new homes for it’s offspring, there by allowing remote access to your system (sound familar?). Secondly you gentlemen seemed to have overlooked Aliens? One of the best films with an accurate representation of how soldiers talk amongst themselves. Might I ask the next time you want to do a show on war in sci fi, ask someone or two to particpate? I’ve spent 4 years in the Marines and 3 in the Army plus a few in between in the National Guard.
Peace out
Chuck
June 4th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Wait I did not hear any mention of the time war in sf warfare I mean it won and it was also in star trek
June 5th, 2008 at 9:55 am
The tiime wars in Star Trek, Voyager’s “Year of Hell” and the Temporal Cold War in “Enterprise” are not worth mentioning becuase 1) in the end their lasting effects were forgotten or erased (along with any dramatic impact they could have had) and 2) they sucked.
(most of that bitterness is directed toward “Enterprise”, though I resent the fact that “Voyager”, which I do like, built up to this great idea of “the Year of Hell”, then crapped it away with one 2-part episode ending with Braga hitting his history eraser button, illustrating what’s wrong with most time travel stories, they’re dramatic cheats that jerk the audience around. Grrr.)
Dr. Who’s Time War maybe warranted a mention, except we never saw any of it, so it’s little more than a mention.
As for “Aliens”- I actually thought of that and in the hustle I forgot to mention it. Certainly one of my favorites.
June 5th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Chuck -
We would love to have you on sometime to discuss warfare. Also, you can leave us a voicemail at any point through the temporal temps hotline and we could use that on a show.
June 5th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Guys,
Love the show.
Chuck is correct…Aliens is the closest thing to how troops interact with each other…to a certain point. John Scalzi, from “Old Man’s War” has is down pretty well, as well as John Ringo (Posleen war series) and Dietz(sp.) from his Legionnaire series.
The problem with films and television sci-fi is they would rather have drama, rather than realism when it comes to soldiers/marines and how they interact or operate in a combat environment. Dale Dye is a rather popular example of someone who advises Hollywood on how soldiers act in a combat environment. But, the director has to consider what would look good on film to convey his vision, and he will sacrifice realism to do it. That is understandable.
The film NOT THE BOOK “Starship Troopers” was one of the worst examples of military scifi on film. Peter Verhooven’s vision of troops attacking bugs en-masse like some Medieval conflict was positively absurd (can I say that?) Heinlein’s book, on the other hand, appreciated the developments of technology regarding warfare; fewer troops can cover more area in a tactical environment (hence the power suits, portable nukes, etc.) However, the one thing I will give old Peter is that in some armies, men and women do share the same shower facilities, such as the Polish troops and some other western European armies.
Soldiers and Marines don’t think about patriotism, the cause, or whatever reason in a combat environment. They think about their fellow soldiers, and doing what they can to do the job and keep each other alive. Scalzi, Heinlein, Ringo and Haldeman capture the essence of this.
Love your show guys, feel free to ask my opinion, anytime regarding scifi and warfare.
MAJ Paul Woods
DS/DS USMC
OIF 1-3 Army
OIF 5-7 Army
June 5th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
We really appreciate the comments on this issue.
June 5th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Major Woods is right; in movies and TV the drama is usually made the primary factor and not necessarily the actual warfare. And for good reason people do not watch television or movies for realism it is escapism, plain and simple. A few shows in the past have attempted to focus on the actual war and it’s affect on those involved; a show that comes to mind is Space: Above and Beyond, a unique tack on what the Marine Corps could be, though I have a hard time believing a squadron of Marine Aviator’s would be used in so many ground actions. Another pair of prime examples would be Robotech and StarBlazers (that’s Battle Ship Yamoto for you purists). Of course most authors and script writers seem stuck on the classical naval warfare, big ships with fighters and escorts. What I really would love to see is a real use of combined forces similar to how today’s military operates, naval gunfire from space, close air support from Air Force pilots and Marine or Army Infantry in a fire fight. Sort like the scene in Transformer’s in the village, when attacked by the scorpion. Is it just me or am I crazy?
Peace Out
Chuck
June 6th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Chuck,
Man, I loved “Space: Above and Beyond” but I do agree with you on why they would send very expensive, highly trained pilots to do grunt work. But, thanks to the typical Fox decision-making process, we will never see who wins the war against the Chigs.
The combined arms effort would be more cool. That’s what floored me in “Iron Man”. I guess the Air Force is totally running the show over in Afghanistan. When Tony Stark was demonstrating his new missile system, I found it amusing that the USAF was the audience, and not artillerymen from the Army or USMC. I and a couple of my Army buddies were amazed at the fact that the Air Force seemed to run the whole show over there. Not realistic. However, the reason that probably happened was because the USAF give full cooperation and sponsorship to the movie (great recruiting tool), and the Army or USMC probably turned them down…’cause we are a little busy right now.
But the Star Wars universe has actually done a pretty good job of depicting combined arms warfare…If you want see how a combined arms effort works a little better in SciFi check out Battle for Hoth (TESB). (I heard that someone actually did a Battle Analysis for the Army War College a few years back.) It’s a decent example of how effective a mechanized infantry force can overwhelm a light infantry force that has limited air support, and is fighting from a trench line (and one measly ion cannon..are you kidding?) Too bad the Rebels didn’t learn from WWI like we did…fighting from trenches is BAD. I would have court martialed General Rieekan for that blundered operation.
The Battle for Geonosis(AOTC) is a pretty good example, too. You had vertical envelopment (air assault) by Republican forces against the Droid army. Superior maneuverability and speed won the battle for the Clone Army. So, in conclusion, a combined effort in SciFi can be done…and look pretty darn cool!
MAJ Woods
June 6th, 2008 at 7:54 am
its just too bad we had to wait over 90 minutes just to get to that one sequence of scenes.
June 6th, 2008 at 9:18 am
I agree! Just skip all those idiotic love scenes with Anakin and Panda-bear and its a much better movie.
June 6th, 2008 at 9:24 am
If you look at what Spielberg’s “Saving Private Ryan” did for depicting combat, and then combine that with Lucas’ visionary team, you could make one heckuva sci-fi war film. Imagine what Spielberg’s “War of the Worlds” would look like when filmed from a military perspective….or even a TOTAL remake of “Starship Troopers”….no more Verhooven. But, to capture the book the way R.H. intended they should make it into a SciFi channel mini-series on the scale of BSG. That would be so epic!!! Powersuits and cool earings for all!
June 7th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Very good thoughts, everyone.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Well I tried to stay out of this one but what the Hell. Anyway. I’m with Vince on the Star Trek issue. Also there is only so much diplomacy and exploration. Even though human kind has evolved into treating things diplomatically, which is great, doesn’t mean other species have done the same thing. What causes human kind to rethink things and stop war could have easily caused the opposite affect. Look at the Klingons and Romulans…
Who by the way was constantly battling with Capt Kirk. Kirk fought back in defense. Just because it didn’t go to all out “war” doesn’t mean it isn’t the exact same thing. Also Kirk was know as the Maverick of Starfleet. The one who was aggressive and took matters into his own hands even if he had to blow up a federation starship to destroy a Klingon threat. Gene Rodenberry was still alive for that one remember.
Furthermore I am going to finish my rantings with this: Stop dogging Padme!!! She’s a freakin babe and I’m going to marry Natalie Portman some day. She’s also a genious! Episodes I II and III may not have been better than IV V and VI but the were still good damn it!!! As with anything there are crappy parts! Get over it!
OK I’m done now. Thanks. Great show!!!
June 17th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Chuck,
You’re right about most authors focusing on the naval aspect of space warfare. I think a lot of it is because warfare between star systems would be much like warfare in an island dotted ocean. The example from history that comes to mind is World War II’s Pacific Theater. Although the land actions during that war were bitter, hotly contested, and showed the need for combined forces (Iwo Jima, Saipan, Guadalcanal), the might of the Japanese military was broken at sea. Many of the battles during that time took place _almost_ entirely between naval forces (Pearl Harbor, Midway, Coral Sea, Battle of the Philippine Sea, Leyte Gulf).
Also, many of the weapons that some authors postulate to exist in these future wars would devastate the very planets they’re fighting for.
I would, however, love to see more speculative fiction based on planetside conflict. Paul mentioned the Posleen (”Legacy of the Alldenata”) wars by John Ringo. There’s also David Drake’s “Hammer’s Slammers” and Keith Laumer’s “Bolo” works.
Chris
June 25th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Hey, Darth Byron:
“…Kirk was know as the Maverick of Starfleet. The one who was aggressive and took matters into his own hands even if he had to blow up a federation starship to destroy a Klingon threat. Gene Rodenberry was still alive for that one remember.”
Actually, after the first movie Roddenberry had no control over Trek until he was brought back in to start up Next Gen. That show really showed the Roddenberry ideal of truly evolved people, and after he died the Alpha Quadrant got mired in one war after another.
I know war is a part of life now, and conflicts will always be unavoidable, but Trek stands out as showing a future when mankind chooses to truly live up to his potential, embrace peace, and break the eternal cycle of war by leaving behind greed and fear. At least it’s supposed to. Starship Troopers and Aliens may be fun futures to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live in them- or dwell on them too much.
You are 100% right though about Padme, and the prequel movies ARE good.